.. incompetent and/or intellectually infirm; unjust force ...
.. may win some battle - but will always eventually lose the war
[critical update - attempt to g00se the g00gleb0t...]
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[Updated, [2]]
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I've said it before but I'm prepared to say it again and again: arguing with propagandists aka (lying!) trolls is not 'just' pointless but worse; by engaging such cretins, all one does is extend the opportunity for them to repeat or introduce ever more of their filthy lies.
As emphasis, I have 'dug up' something from a looong time ago[1].
Having said that, I also have to repeat two other things:
1. Here in _(not so)libre, everyone is truly free. (Unless it's someone doing something nasty, like RT wrote/did/is doing.)
2. To do one's best (yes, we try!) - one must do what one does best.
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Ref(s):
[1] *Very* friendly words:
«And 3) What the hell is a "21st Century seaside Sisyphus"? Or, should I ask?»
[2] This might interest some: The Myth of Sisyphus is a philosophical essay by Albert Camus. Q: How would you choose?
clinton hitler putin site:abc.net.au/
10 years ago
Heard and read the Lobby's attempted censorship- by-smearing of Seyed Mohammad Khātamī today.
ReplyDeleteKhātamī's coming to Melbourne, thanks to La Trobe University's Centre for Dialogue, and will attend an event hosted by Anglican Archbishop Philip Freier.
Dr Freier said he had invited Jewish leaders along with other groups who suffered persecution in Iran - Christians and Baha'is - so they could raise their concerns with Mr Khatami.
The Lobby decided (on behalf of Jewish-Australians, as if that's their right) that its better to keep throwing sticks and stones than start sensibly seeing that, if conflicts are to be resolved, opportunities to open dialogue should be sought and taken.
Just goes to show who is and is not interested in conflict resolution.
I agree with this comment by R. Ross in a thread following an article in The Age about this issue:
ReplyDelete"This particular section of the Jewish community is increasingly tiresome in its efforts to censor open conversation and varied views.
"The foundation of a democratic and liberal society is free speech. One may not like what someone says but as a believer in democracy and freedom, one would fight to the death to defend their right to say it.
"This section of the Jewish community, and they are not representative, needs to take a good hard look at itself and perhaps ponder the level of paranoia, denial, fear-mongering and hysteria in which they appear to be spending their time.
"The view 'Israel right or wrong,' and/or 'Jews right or wrong' does great disserve to the Jewish religion and all those who follow it.
In truth, these attempts to prevent freedom of speech run counter to the long tradition of debate and argument which is part and parcel of Judaism."
And I'm impressed by the very next comment from Benjamin of Caulfield:
ReplyDelete"I think before calling for more exclusion we as a small group in society should start being more inclusive. I am a young Jewish man about to finish school and find it hard to believe that no one from my community is joining groups to contribute to the greater society. We need to become firemen, policemen, army staff and start giving back to Australia for what it has given us.
"Please end exclusion and look to the future not the past. We accept massive amounts of welfare for our large families etc. Lets start giving contributing not taking and excluding. shalom"
A follow-up to my mention of how The Lobby (represented in Melbourne by John Searle) making decisions "on behalf of" Jewish-Australians.
ReplyDeleteObviously, the Lobby has no right to do that, it does not represent all Australian Jews, yet it goes even further with Searle deciding to speak for all Australian Baha'is as well.
This was a letter published in The Age today:
Goodwill to all
Australian Baha'is are grateful to the president of the Jewish Community Council of Victoria, John Searle, for raising the unjust imprisonment of Baha'i leaders in Iran (20/3) but we have to clarify one point.
Mr Searle wrote that Baha'is shared his council's belief "that Iran is currently the greatest danger to world peace and representatives such as Khatami are part of its strategy of ill intent". The Baha'i position is not to make such political statements. The principles of our faith require Baha'is to show goodwill to their governments, to be law-abiding, to avoid partisan political involvement and to foster unity.
Baha'is respect Iran as the birthplace of our religion. However, we believe it our right to call for the immediate cessation of the systematic persecution of the Baha'is in that country.
Michael Day, Australian Baha'i spokesperson, Brisbane
G'day orana gelar,
ReplyDelete.. know of any reference (hopefully 'balanced') to this alleged "systematic persecution of the Baha'is" in Iran? I dimly recall seeing a report that said a) that there is a sizable Jewish group of people making their home in Iran and b) these people were quite happy in their environment, generally free to go as they please and worship whatever. These two stories clash a bit; have I missed something?
It may be an exaggerated claim to say there is 'systematic persecution' of the Baha'is in Iran, but there are seven Baha'i leaders currently being held in Evin prison in Iran:
ReplyDeleteFariba Kamalabadi, 46, a developmental psychologist and mother of three.
Jamaloddin Khanjani, 75, a former factory owner.
Afif Naemi, 47, an industrialist.
Saeid Rezaie, 51, an agricultural engineer.
Mahvash Sabet, 55, a school principal.
Behrouz Tavakkoli, 57, a former social worker.
Vahid Tizfahm, 35, is an optometrist and owner of an optical shop in Tabriz.
They are to be tried for charges including "espionage for Israel, insulting religious sanctities, and propaganda against the Islamic republic."
Amnesty International's view of the situation of Baha'is in Iran is:
ReplyDelete"There are over 300,000 Baha’is currently in Iran, but their religion is not recognized under the Iranian Constitution, which only recognizes Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Baha’is in Iran are subject to discriminatory laws and regulations which violate their right to practise their religion freely, as set out in Article 18(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Iran is a state party. The Iranian authorities also deny Baha’is equal rights to education, to work and to a decent standard of living by restricting their access to employment and benefits such as pensions. They are not permitted to meet, to hold religious ceremonies or to practise their religion communally. Since President Ahmadinejad was elected in 2005, dozens of Baha’is have been arrested."
G'day Orana,
ReplyDeleteI haven't considered the religious problems which seem to exist in Iran - or for that matter - all over the world.
However, using a purely national basis, I believe that the free world owes the Iranians a debt, if only for their courage in standing up to the American global empire strategies.
You are probably aware that the US used their influence over Saddam to create a war between Iraq and Iran while, at the same time, providing weapons to both opponents! When their puppet dictator began to think independently, he signed his own death warrant.
Nuences are usually beyond me Orana, but if we want to save democracy in its purest form, we should support the right of all religions and nations to decide on the way they want to live, provided they have no aspirations of plunder and murder like the Zionists of new Israel.
I see Iran, even with the limited and biased information the powers that be allow us - as a country who wants to be what it is and deal with its own problems without outside interference.
Since WW II the Americans have used their military might and their profits from war to impose their will on nations throughout the world. G.W. Bush said it all viz: "You are either with us or against us" - "so spake the Emperor of the fourth Reich"?
Governments rarely have the privilege these days to deal with their own problems in their own way - as demonstrated by the world financial crisis.
From the day the Americans took over the United Nations by "graciously" providing a very imposing building in which to be able to mollify the doubts of the unsuspecting - the "dye was cast".
They are the new "Global Empire" by stealth and the aggressive introduction of de-stabilising interests, not the least of which is the pseudo-westerner Zionists in new Israel.
If we look at the map of the Middle East it would seem unbelievable that the Palestinian lands could become the new source of world turmoil. This inexcusable aggression is only possible by the US supporting the Zionists in their demand for lands that do not belong to them.
The US Military/Corporate has increased its cancerous grip on the American economy - even as President Eisenhower warned in 1961 that it would.
But I digress Orana - I am only these days able to look at the big picture and I don't like what I see.
Cheers _libre' friend.
NE OUBLIE
I understand libre friend. Few situations in our world are a black'n'white one.
ReplyDeleteAs you may know, Baha'i was founded by Bahá'u'lláh in nineteenth-century Persia (now Iran).
'Problem' (at least as far as the Iranian regime is concerned) is that its current world HQ is in Haifa, Israel.
BTW perhaps we're best collectively the "Libre-rated."
Thanks for the Amnesty link. I looked for - but did not find (doesn't rule in or out), any reference to a 'happy Jewish community' in Iran - rather the opposite, that the Jewish community is getting smaller (by emigration) at least since the '79 revolution. Since there "are over 300,000 Baha’is currently in Iran" and the Jewish community is much smaller (namely, the current Jewish population of Iran is estimated by most sources to be 25,000, though estimates vary, as low as 11,000 and as high as 40,000 [wiki]), my original query was not well-founded. But then see this: "Religious persecution is not the reason for the massive emigration of non-Muslim Iranians. The bad economy and the luring call of emigrated family members and the permanent American residence permit are the driving forces." [ibid.]
ReplyDelete"Mah fellow libre-rated!" - sounds good.
ReplyDeleteIn 1953 the US installed a puppet-gatekeeper, after the CIA-inspired coup d'état ended Iran's brief experiment with parliamentary democracy under Mosaddeq and "reinstalled Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi as an absolute ruler" [wiki].
The Iranians struck back with their '79 revolution, by nature reacting against the Shah's (filthy!) excesses - in cases, understandably perhaps, over-reacting. Poor, hapless Iranians.
Then as standard operating procedure, anyone who thwarts the US gets the 'full treatment' including (visible) sanctions, and (invisible) subversion, with the US caring little (ve-e-ery little) as to who they (the US) use - or abuse - in the process.
Sooo, Q: Is it possible that the detained Baha’is actually are (CIA/Mossad inspired) spies/subversives? Or 'merely' falling foul of the revolutionary over-reaction?
In the 'normal' course of events - normal only in the sense once again, of 'standard operating procedure,' US destabilisations were more or less hidden from us - by *not* being reported in the MSM - say.
Such *non*-reporting amounts to a sin of omission, and just as much as censorship (think: 'over there') is deeply undemocratic.
Any person acting as a functioning unfair information gateway, even extending their biases to prefer and enable known, lying propagandists, makes him/herself by definition an utter and complete traitor to our democracy.
I find it both absurd and infinitely sad, that our world is so cruelly dominated by crooks, not 'just' lying, censoring and bullying, but right 'up' to and including murder for spoil. Life could be sooo grand ...
Q: Is it possible that the detained Baha’is actually are (CIA/Mossad inspired) spies/subversives? Or 'merely' falling foul of the revolutionary over-reaction?
ReplyDeletePossible that they are spies? At this stage the answer from my viewpoint is yes. Anything is possible.
Is it probable? I'm unsure, the evidence is yet to be presented and tested.
The Baha'is outside Iran certainly claim the seven are innocent.
Possible that they are falling foul of over-reaction by the Iranian regime? Yes, for sure.
Probable? Highly likely, because elements of the Iran regime (just as with any regime) do over-react to perceived threats.
I don't know much detail about activities of the seven Baha'is held in Evin prison, though I do know that their defending attorney is Noble Peace Prize recepient, Mrs. Širin Ebâdi. She's not been able to access her clients to date.
US-based Baha'is present an argument that the charge of 'Espionage for Israel' is false on the grounds that the seven (and indeed all Iranian Baha'is) lack opportunity to engage in any effective espionage.
ReplyDeleteBaha'is in Iran, they say, cannot be employed in government jobs so they are unlikely to have access to any Iranian military or political secrets.
Sounds to me like a reasonable argument.
These Baha'is may be just more hapless victims. In the leaked but now publicly available CIA report on the coup planning entitled Overthrow of Premier Mossadeq of Iran, the word 'blowback' publicly appears for the first time.
ReplyDeleteFrom the same wiki I cited before:
1. «In May 1901, ... The Persians were dissatisfied with the British oil concession and the royalty terms, whereby Persia only received 16 per cent of net profits»
2. « ... the coup d'état was "a classic case of nationalism clashing with imperialism in the Third World". Secretary of State Dean Acheson admitted the “`Communist threat` was a smokescreen” in responding to Pres. Eisenhower's claim that the Tudeh party was about to assume power.»
3. « ... The 1953 coup d'état was the first time the U.S. had openly overthrown an elected, civilian government. [38] In the U.S., Operation Ajax was considered by its perpetrators "one of their greatest foreign policy successes"[35] and had "immediate and far-reaching effect. Overnight, the CIA became a central part of the American foreign policy apparatus, and covert action came to be regarded as a cheap and effective way to shape the course of world events"»
One could read the lot - I just did. It's appalling; first the UK and then the US meddling in the affairs of sovereign countries, basically running amok - in this case to steal oil. What else? Why can't they just trade fairly - and buy the stuff? UK had the money then, US (until the recent financial melt-down) had the money too - but they don't just buy it, they murder to steal it.
No truth from them - the UK, US then, now updated to US, UK, Aus & Israel. No truth, no properly functioning democracy, all lies and crime; murder for spoil.
*WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?*
Indeed, IDHolm. Any analysis of America’s position in the Middle East would be incomplete without a thorough understanding of the US role in overthrowing Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, the democratically elected and revered Prime Minister (Time’s 1951 'Man of The Year') because he'd nationalised Iran’s oil for the good of the people.
ReplyDeleteRealise that the coup plan originated with the British Conservative Winston Churchill (that so-called great defender of democracy), and that whilst Truman (Dem) wouldn't agree to it, the Dulles brothers (GOP) convinced Eisenhower (GOP)to authorise it in '53.
The Dulles brothers were also behind CIA Operation PBSUCCESS - the 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état against democratically-elected Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán. That was done for United Fruit Company.
ReplyDeleteA quick look into the background of the Dulles brothers suggests these key ideological influences:
ReplyDelete1. Christian religious upbringing (note Lakoff's 'Strict Father Model') - they were sons of a Presbyterian minister, Allen Macy Dulles. John Foster Dulles has been described as "a deeply religious man" and was probably paranoid about "godless" Communists.
2. Conservative education - they both attended Princeton and The George Washington University Law School.
3. Republican connections - they were the grandsons of John Watson Foster, a Republican and US Secretary of State under President Benjamin Harrison.
4. Conservative/Business interests - both brothers worked for the New York City law firm Sullivan & Cromwell.
Found something going some way to confirming that John Foster Dulles was indeed paranoid about "godless" Communists.
ReplyDeleteMark G. Toulouse had his thesis published in 1984 and in it he wrote:
"Accompanying this jingoism [i.e. Dulles' belief in US Exceptionalism)was his equally fervent belief that the resolution of international conflict largerly depended on humankind adopting the values of the West. Wherever the 'simple and elementary religious beliefs' of the West 'are widely rejected', [Dulles] reasoned, 'there is both spiritual and social disorder.'"
Toulouse quotes Dulles:
"That fact is illustrated by fascism and communism. These are, in the main, atheistic and antireligious creeds. Orthodox communists believe that there is neither God nor moral law ... they are free of the moral restraints and compulsions which prevail in a religious society, and they think it quite right use force and violence to make their way prevail."
Wow! What a deluded hypocrite he was.
Which nation used force and violence to make "their way" prevail in Iran in 1953? Guatemala in '54? In Italy with Operation Gladio from '53 to the 1980s? In Cuba '59? Congo in 1960? Iraq in '63? Brazil in '64? Greece in 67? etc.
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